[Softmints]

My current plan for Tyriphe is:

Lucent Beam: As it is currently: bonus magical damage and vanishing if touched. I would like to do more with it though.
Attract: As it was before: cluster of stars on the nearest enemy.
Elune's Arrows: Sticking with the resistance lowering for now. I would like a better aiming aspect though, as these are bland at the moment.
---
Gemini Strike: New ultimate, higher damage but very weak if it doesn't hit exactly two targets.

Thoughts? Complaints? Opinions? Liked the old Elune's Arrows better? Let me hear it!

[JohnJohnSilva]

Make Elune's Arrows manual to use as in you have to right click the target over and over to shoot (Ofcourse while they were in attack range) while elune arrows are autocast highlighted.
An easy to fix to the bland "Autocast then just fucking shoot" mechanic.
If you decided to do this you would need to buff Elune's arrows otherwise it wouldn't be worth using.

This post has been edited by JohnJohnSilva: 01 February 2010 - 08:45 PM

[Dracula]

Could always just make them fire in a straight line affecting the first unit hit with short cooldown/low mana cost, but make them actively casted (and probably buff a bit).
That way they wouldn't simply stack with normal arrows and would require aiming, but would represent the feel of having multiple arrows and aiming them all instead of putting all bets into one final epic arrow.

As for Lucent Beam, I'm in agreement that it does need to do more. As it is, it's really only useful for in-field mana replenishment and the intermittent use in a defensive context. Perhaps passively fires moonbeams at enemies near it? Would give enemies a greater incentive to disrupt the Lucent Beam, even if unoccupied. (Or it could just have manadrain aura.)

[JohnJohnSilva]

The new Elune Arrows itself needs a buff and Tyriphe needs the old Elune Arrows, but as a new ability or even as an add on to the new ability.
A buff for the new Elune Arrows would be an increase to the amount of resistance it takes away, right now it feels lacking if not unnecessary.

An interesting synergy would be to add the old Elune Arrow buff as a renamed passive (I.E If Tyriphe is stationary for X amount of time she receives and X% damage boost) and to buff the new Elune Arrow with an additional effect, each successful shot against the same target increases Tyriphe's maximum range against the target. That would eliminate the need for additional resistance removal because of the capability of not moving and doing increased damage for a longer period of time in a longer range. Melee heroes would be fucked if they attacked Tyriphe without thinking, she would be able to destroy them with increased damage from afar. She would also have more of an incentive to sit in the Lucent Beam

Lucent Beam also needs a buff to either magic damage or mana regeneration the latter being the more powerful.
Lucent Beam could also do damage to all enemies inside of it too allowing for even more difficult for melee heroes, using it as a protective form of immolation while sitting in it with increased magic damage and mana regen or by placing it near an escape to kill running heroes you cannot catch.

This post has been edited by JohnJohnSilva: 02 February 2010 - 01:46 AM

[Dracula]

Could always just give Tyriphe her extremely old autocast (the line damage) back, albeit with a bit of balancing from its old incarnation.
Still, I liked the concept of that move. Increased her damage and made it fire in a line (increasing maximum range as a result), but her attacks became dodgeable as a result, meaning someone with good micro could completely ruin someone relying only on this.

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Lucent Beam could also do damage to all enemies inside of it too allowing for even more difficult for melee heroes.

If the "beam dissipates on being touched by enemy" condition dissipates, sure. If not, no. I suppose one amusing scenario could be making it explode violently when it dissipates, though.

This post has been edited by Dracula: 02 February 2010 - 06:45 PM

[XgE.Obseedian]

The exploding beam idea would be taking away from the lucent beam idea as a whole. If I were using that, I would just plop it down at the feet of my enemies for an instant aoe-nuke. Also, no enemy would ever, ever want to touch the beam to get rid of it, making the whole thing rather null-and-void.

I liked the old Typhie's arrows better because they required you to play a certain way and influence the hero as a whole, plus they were much more creative then simply stacking damage.

An idea could be that if Typhie ever hits hold posistion, a luncent beam automatcially forms at her location, but dispitates as soon as she leaves it.

I also think typhie could use an ablitty that increases her old range, escpesially if she gets her old arrows back. Maybe another bonus to the lunar beam?

[Dracula]

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The exploding beam idea would be taking away from the lucent beam idea as a whole. If I were using that, I would just plop it down at the feet of my enemies for an instant aoe-nuke.

Perhaps, but this could easily be fixed by simply making it near-useless immediately after cast and then gradually building up power over its duration. If it survived the entire duration, the lucent beam would be fired as a laser in the direction it was originally casted (relative to Tyriphe).
Even so, there are quite a few ways to get rid of a Lucent Beam without actually stepping into it yourself. Hakkar's Pounce, Sivaz's Cthulu, Ogake's beetles, to name a few. Even so...

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An idea could be that if Typhie ever hits hold posistion, a luncent beam automatcially forms at her location, but dispitates as soon as she leaves it.

I prefer this idea, although it would have to have a "casting time" where Tyriphe has to stand still for X seconds for the beam to even appear in the first place. Otherwise you could just use it in every single combat situation, which would be OP given the magic damage/resistance boost alone, not to mention the constant mana regeneration during the fight.

[XgE.Obseedian]

It could always be a weaker lucent beam too, like only 25% of the bonuses or something like that.

[Gahn]

the beam could take 3 or so seconds to start forming and then gain more and more strength as Ty holds her position, to a max of it's current level.

or each level could reduce the time, spent holding position, required for the beam to form.

This post has been edited by Gahn: 05 February 2010 - 07:44 PM

[Softmints]

One possible ability (courtesy of Dekar) would be to have the arrows travel in a line as per her old autocast (the one Dracula described), but with the additional effect that they fall into orbit around her beam if it's nearby, for a certain duration/number of hits. With a bit of spam, she would have a whirlwind of arrowy death around her beam, making her almost unapproachable by melee heroes. If this were added, I imagine I would remove the dissipate effect so she could drop it in the middle of a lane and spam at it.

I could return to her old arrows, but I am more likely to use something similar, preferably not easy to auto-attack with. The old arrows with a longer delay before bonus damage; maybe. Lowering resistance is too auto-attack now that I've seen it in action.

Btw, I once coded an arrow which gravitated towards units, but this turned out to be impossible to aim accurately.

[Paper_Tree]

This is just something that popped into my head, but what if you could target where the moonbeam forms(up to 600 units). Then give her a ability that detonates the moonbeam and blinks her to its location. this would clear out creeps leaving enemy heroes to be hit w/ attract.

[Softmints]

Ty already has Attract/Gemini Strike as nukes, I don't think she needs another full 'nuke' as you describe. That's why I prefer an autocast for her. Even so, I had an idea for a nuke: the beam begins moving towards Tyriphe's position at the time of casting, and continues in that direction burning any enemies it touches. Probably too easy to dodge, but more interesting to aim then the average nuke. I don't actually intend on adding it.

[Paper_Tree]

i finally got to play the updated tryiphe and I don't like her at all. its just conditional nukes that don't go together at all. attract requires tryiphe to move around and get close to the unit she is attempting to hit, yet this goes against her innate and second active which require her to stand still. also the gemini-strike doesn't deal enough damage based on how few times one gets to use it. additionally its kinda just there, it doesn't fit in at all.

[Grumbletok]

I agree with Paper_Tree, sorry, but she seems like such hasty work as it is, especially
her ultimate, like you just want to force her into the game without finishing her.
As paper said, her Innate and auto cast works against Attract, and also against Gemini
Strike, since it got such freaking low casting range. What more, Gemini strike deals way to
little for being such an ability that it is, it seems more like a normal skill than a ultimate,
an improved Attract would suit better as ultimate, if any of her skills does. Also, looking
at Gemini strike, i couldn't see any animation for it, and it's condition seems... Weird, i mean,
she shoots two arrows together? How is that ruined by more/less units? Shouldn't that really
deal more damage on a single unit/hero than on two? And if so, why is it's casting range so
low, it is a pretty though bow, it would be able to shoot pretty far by it's looks. And, i must say,
she isn't a Agility hero at all, she is a wannabe-magician hero since you want to use that model
but don't want to make it Intelligence :/ Stop focusing on that she uses a freaking bow, or do
just focus on that she uses a bow and make it's abilities suit each other, like if you would keep
the current skills, making the Lunar Beam or what it's called to be move able as a sort of summon,
slow maybe, but still moving, and rather than dealing extra damage from standing still, it would
suit and work much better for her if it was made so that the More she moves the stronger it gets,
making her rather good at hunting, as Attract seems pretty meant to be for, as well as some kind
of altered Gemini strike as well, but a bit harder to just stand and shoot, since her attacks would
be weaker then, thus not just being a auto-attack hero. And, for Gemini strike, i understand that
the mechanics of it's use is on your taste, but it's simply just bothering, not challenging, and there
is no logic in what the hell it is...


Well then, that's my say in this matter, make sure that your hero follows her own theme, if she
got one planned at all, and work from there...

[Softmints]

I know Tyriphe needs work. I'll be doing some over the coming days, and I hope the result will be a big improvement.

The conditional nukes have been used for lack of a better alternative, I know they're limp.

Her damage will remain based off Agility, because I like heroes having varied options for items. You will notice that Heretic is primarily a support caster and he's Agility based as well, but he can get Comets or Stormstrike and remain effective. That doesn't stop him from taking Celestial Rod or Taelus, but he has a range of options, and that's healthy in my view. Not every hero lives up to this ideal, but most do.

...and learn to format your posts, Grum. Walls of text scream 'ignore me'.

This post has been edited by Softmints: 10 March 2010 - 08:05 PM

[Gahn]

At Grumble:

While I do agree with the conflict between her skills, that half encourage mobility and the other discourage it, there are somethings that I disagree with, and somethings I think you've missed.

Ty does have a general theme, atleast fluff wise, and her skills reflect it. Lucent Beam, Attract, Gemini Strike, and her arrows are all themed towards a Moon/constelation theme.

As for Gemini Strike, its definition: "The third sign of the zodiac in astrology. Also called Twins." It also has an effect, a purple effect shows up in the centre of the AoE and I don't know where you got the idea that she shoots two arrows, I don't remember seeing that in the spell description.

This post has been edited by Gahn: 10 March 2010 - 08:11 PM

[Dracula]

Guys, stop bashing Soft, that's my job.
Anyway, to address the perceived synergistical issue:
Half of her skills involve standing still, half of them involve proactive motion.
So, assuming we're intelligent people, let's analyze the uses of each.

Standing still - You tend to do this a lot while defending a base or attacking one, and also during creep camp raids. Thus, it makes sense to use Lucent/Elune's here, yes?

Moving - General combat, pursuits, retreats, damaging. Attract has 2000 range, making it almost impossible for the enemy to pursue you without getting raped by you if you're smart, the same applying for if they try to run from you. Gemini Strike is just awesome, however, it has low range. Meaning you want to use this BEFORE THEY START RUNNING.

I don't think the issue with Tyriphe at the moment is her skillset as much as the facts that
A: Attract is overpowered. This can easily be fixed numerically, unless Soft already did so before I posted this (in which case you may all laugh at me or whatever.)
B: Because her skills are split into two different categories, people do not understand how to use her properly. Nerothos is a more obvious example of this, since he's a DPS turned spellcaster as well, and his moves fall into two VERY DIFFERENT categories.

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also the gemini-strike doesn't deal enough damage based on how few times one gets to use it.

.....It has a 50 second cooldown. That's, like, LOLSHORT in comparison to most ultimate moves.

Quote

more, Gemini strike deals way to
little for being such an ability that it is, it seems more like a normal skill than a ultimate,
an improved Attract would suit better as ultimate, if any of her skills does.

...No. Trust me, it deals enough damage if you use decent items. Combined with the fact that creeping as Tyriphe is ridiculously easy, this shouldn't be a problem.

Quote

would
suit and work much better for her if it was made so that the More she moves the stronger it gets,

Again, no. This would only make Tyriphe instantly overpowered, not to mention would make Lucent Beam worthless, creating another non-synergy.

Summary: Tyriphe is actually very solid as she is right now gameplay-wise, it's just a matter of learning when to use her skills to maximum effect.

And seriously...if you're going to complain, don't contradict yourself in the process.

This post has been edited by Dracula: 10 March 2010 - 11:22 PM

[Grumbletok]

Well, i will answer to this anyways, so...

First of: Standing still a lot when defending/attacking a camp? Seriously?
Standing still when defending is the more logical of those two, but still,
you don't stand still at one position, especially not one marked with a lunar
beam, since the enemies will just launch their spells at you, knowing that
either they get free shoots or you will have to move, weakening yourself
if you're Tyr. Standing still like that is just to ask for getting slaughtered by
Sivaz/Garry/Agnes/Nerothos, and to some extent Ogake, depending on corpses.

Standing still while attacking a base is even more stupid, you move around because
the enemies usually don't take lightly on you standing and attacking their tower
or being in their area at all. The only hero that can somehow stand still safely in an
enemy camp, of course counting in that the place is guarded, is Garry. What more,
why would you place a Lunar Beam in the enemy camp, when the enemies will surely
run over to you and cancel it by stepping on it? Once again, Lunar Beam's major effect
is to give the signal "Here i will stand, get your free shots!". (Edit in 3: As i checked her
skills in single player, i noticed that her arrow-abilities actually still count as Physical,
rendering the idea of placing a Moonbeam and stand still there and attacking a tower
even more useless...)

And, okay, Gemini Strike, you're right, it do mean the celestial, but, still, does it make
sense that if there are more/less targets than two in the area, the spell's effect is removed?
And, if we're gonna be so close on that matter, i wonder what the Gemini's got to do
with the moon, except that they are both in space? The Gemini's is a celestial, a collection
of stars in a formation, and as a fact, the sun is a star, and every star is a sun, so why can
someone who uses the power of Elune, the Moon goddess, summon the power of distant
suns? (Edited in: And, Elune is a Moon and not a Night goddess, so the fact that the stars
only shows at night isn't justified by that fact either, it's still suns or planets, not moons)
( Edit In 2: Just hosted the game in Single player and checked out the description of Gemini
strike, and it doesn't say either anything about being about the celestial, for all we know the
spell could be about that she drops two, invisible twin babies at the targeted place >_> )

As for the more-you-move-the-more-damage, it wouldn't make her overpowered if you balance
it, as with the standing still it would of course have a limit on how much power it gives, the difference
is that it wouldn't make you a free target and would be useful for hunting.

I agree that she's awesome at creeping, but, is that really an aspect that a hero should have
focus on? Sure, killing the neutrals is great, but they are not in the game for that long and the
purpose of that point is then lost...

What more, the short cooldown on Gemini Strike isn't really what i think about, but rather that
you have to get a clean shot with it. The fact that it got such short range, and no enemy with a brain
will stay within her range if she stands still, makes it ridiculous. Often enemy units ruins the shot, or
it's simply way to much happening on the screen to aim a AoE attack at just two enemies. What more,
if you get Septic, the AoE increases and it gets even more annoying, since you want to be able to pick
out enemies. Opening a combat with striking an enemy with your ultimate, even if you make it strong,
is not very smart, since the enemy will then run away, making it just a waste of mana.

I do like Attract, but, for the notice, fighting heroes one on one isn't smart with her, since she have to
stand still, she is more suitable to stand behind a wave of creeps or other heroes, and in those cases
it can be very annoying to get the hero you want to attack to be struck, if you don't use Rocket Boots,
and that it got 2000 range doesn't help much, just meaning that any enemy that gets within that 2000
range of yours is going to make it risky to use the skills if you aren't obviously close to the hero you wish
to target.

I still feel she needs to get focused on one aspect, either spellcasting or normal attacks, since at her current
state she is at most Average at all aspects except creeping, which shouldn't be in focus for any hero.

Also, ask you this, if Garry's Cannon had no effect if it passed through/hit with the explosion, more than
two targets, anyone would see that it wasn't worth it. And, i think his cannon even got longer range
than Gemini strike, and Gemini doesn't even knockback, which his Cannon does.

I am sorry if i upset people but i really want this game to work all out and i don't think that'll work if
we try to glorify things that obviously isn't a solid concept :/

Now, you can go ahead and bash me, or try to change my mind, but that'll be quite difficult, i fear...

This post has been edited by Grumbletok: 11 March 2010 - 09:23 AM

[Dracula]

Quote

Now, you can go ahead and bash me, or try to change my mind, but that'll be quite difficult, i fear...
You must try harder, Winston. It is not easy to become sane. -O'Brien

Anyway, let us begin.

Quote

you don't stand still at one position, especially not one marked with a lunar
beam, since the enemies will just launch their spells at you, knowing that
either they get free shoots or you will have to move, weakening yourself
if you're Tyr. Standing still like that is just to ask for getting slaughtered by
Sivaz/Garry/Agnes/Nerothos, and to some extent Ogake, depending on corpses.

And Tyriphe outranges them all significantly with Attract, which is a pretty nice spell. You should be able to at least get one hit off before having to run, which will do EVEN MORE damage under the effect of Lucent Beam. Obviously, I didn't mean "stay and get ganked by four heroes by yourself. If they do start to mass on you, you run. Just remember that you have allies as well, and hopefully they'd either be helping you or attacking the other outpost, nullifying the enemy's numerical advantage either through your own or forcing them to split and fend off an assault on two fronts. If you have Gemini Strike ready, well, a tower and a hero total up to be two units, allowing you to deal even MORE damage to the enemy hero and possibly forcing him to flee uselessly instead of stopping you.
And seriously...I don't want to even hear about Legion spawns disrupting Gemini Strike in this situation. If you're getting surrounded by them, you really shouldn't still be there. While I'm not by any means saying you won't ever have to run, Lucent Beam is a surprisingly effective sieger which is useful for boosting spell damage against the tower for a few quick but hard hits.

Quote

Standing still while attacking a base is even more stupid, you move around because
the enemies usually don't take lightly on you standing and attacking their tower
or being in their area at all.

Again, same point. Tyriphe can deal quite a bit of damage before they have time to even get there, even if her team isn't helping. Even if there aren't any Legion creeps around, there's usually a Voidmasochist, which makes a nice conductor for Gemini Strike.

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What more,
why would you place a Lunar Beam in the enemy camp, when the enemies will surely
run over to you and cancel it by stepping on it?

Are you talking about Legion creeps or heroes? With proper micro, you can still have the effects of Lucent Beam without really putting yourself in much danger of the AI screwing you over. As for heroes, remember, they have to actually get to the beam to step on it. You'd be surprised how much damage you can do to them while they're focusing on that, not to mention if you bring your Mineslayer friend along he can make trying to touch the beam a lethal event.

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As for the more-you-move-the-more-damage, it wouldn't make her overpowered if you balance
it, as with the standing still it would of course have a limit on how much power it gives, the difference
is that it wouldn't make you a free target and would be useful for hunting.

...And what would you have the damage cap be? +20%? That'd be as far as it'd be able to go without being rigged, since moving is infinitely easier and less risky than standing still. There's a difference between "useful" and "rigged".

Quote

I agree that she's awesome at creeping, but, is that really an aspect that a hero should have
focus on? Sure, killing the neutrals is great, but they are not in the game for that long and the
purpose of that point is then lost...

Do you know how much of an advantage early-game creeping is? It gives massive XP and gold, at least, in comparison to hero killing and laning. The heroes who are good at creeping early-game tend to get their team great headstarts if they use their powers toward this end.
Granted, an entire team could just attack a creep camp, but this generally isn't advisable unless the other team gets wiped, since while one kill might not really matter, giving the other team five free kills certainly does.
If you creep enough early game, you'll be so far ahead of the enemy team in gold/XP that it won't even matter. They will have already served their purpose. Tyriphe's ENTIRE SKILLSET is awesome against creeps. You don't have to creep all game, but it certainly doesn't hurt to be able to easily kill creeps early on.

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Often enemy units ruins the shot, or
it's simply way to much happening on the screen to aim a AoE attack at just two enemies.

Attract and Gemini Strike both require aiming to some degree. If you're not a good aimer under pressure, don't use Tyriphe. All I really have to say about that.

Quote

What more,
if you get Septic, the AoE increases and it gets even more annoying, since you want to be able to pick
out enemies.

...Then don't get a Septic.

Quote

Opening a combat with striking an enemy with your ultimate, even if you make it strong,
is not very smart, since the enemy will then run away, making it just a waste of mana.

Depends. If you do it right when they're next to their base, sure it's pointless. If you use it in the middle of the map, they'll probably be mortally wounded, at which point you can just stalk them with Attract and finish them before they can get to safety.

Quote

I do like Attract, but, for the notice, fighting heroes one on one isn't smart with her, since she have to
stand still, she is more suitable to stand behind a wave of creeps or other heroes, and in those cases
it can be very annoying to get the hero you want to attack to be struck,

Tyriphe, when in actual hero combat, is best suited for fighting multiple heroes at once. Attract is AoE and Gemini Strike requires multiple targets. She might not win 1v1, but unless the other team outlevels her vastly or ganks her, she'll almost certainly win a 1v2 or possibly even a 1v3.

"just meaning that any enemy that gets within that 2000
range of yours is going to make it risky to use the skills if you aren't obviously close to the hero you wish
to target."

....You don't just stand there if the enemy starts running, unless you KNOW the next Attract will finish him/her. Run after them. Giving up Lucent Beam bonus damage in such an instance is better than dealing no damage at all.

"I still feel she needs to get focused on one aspect, either spellcasting or normal attacks, since at her current
state she is at most Average at all aspects except creeping, which shouldn't be in focus for any hero."

Uh...no? She's basically a goddess of pursuits and retreating, since she can easily deal significant damage from long ranges while moving. Lucent Beam is good in pitched battle, since it can amplify your damage and give you back some much needed mana, if only for a few seconds.

"Also, ask you this, if Garry's Cannon had no effect if it passed through/hit with the explosion, more than
two targets, anyone would see that it wasn't worth it. And, i think his cannon even got longer range
than Gemini strike, and Gemini doesn't even knockback, which his Cannon does."

Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. His Shock Cannon is significantly different in the way it works.

My summary to this topic can be basically summed up by the antithesis of your summary:

"I am sorry if i upset people but i really want this game to work all out and i don't think that'll work if
we try to glorify things that obviously isn't a solid concept :/"


The concept works fine, although it is admittedly weird. If every hero had a perfect moveset, RoW would become Imba Wars. No offense, but I think this is more of an issue of you simply liking the previous Tyriphe more and wanting her back. Nerothos is probably my favorite character, but I actually have suggested several nerfs for him quite recently, since as he is he's far too powerful - you were there, I shouldn't have to explain further.

I think, above all, you really just need to play against a good Tyriphe. Maybe then you might change your mind.
Afterword: The forums are Q_Qing at me for using too many quote boxes, so I had to delete some. I threw the non-quoteboxed quotes into actual quotation marks.
My offer to annihilate the Legion is still open.

[Grumbletok]

Well, err, i'm still not gonna give up flat out >_>

Of course i understand that you'll run after, but really, how godly do you think
that Attract is? It's not like it got 2 seconds cooldown and costs 50 mana, you
don't just spam it, and remember, the enemies got Brains, they tend to run to
friendly units/other heroes to defend themselves against Attract, any enemy
just slightly closer than the wished target will possibly ruin the shot. Also, if you
run after the target it will cost you both your Lucent Beam and your auto-attack
spell, since both relying on standing still, an enemy can just run a little bit away
and then turn around and beat the hell out of her.

What more, about sceptic, it is Awesome in combination with Attract, since you
can then use it to poison a running enemy, or a whole army, and also increases
the radius of Attract, and it gives a really neat Intelligence bonus, which is what
you'll stack up if you want to use Attract as a strong spell, and then it's just sad
that it'll make Gemini even more annoying to use.

Furthermore, the bases are still defended, enemy units and heroes Will be there,
and since she is a Agility hero and most certainly wont build on either strength, health
or armor, she is vournable to the most. And, dealing a lot of damage during that
Very short time you'll get to stand still before the enemy moves? That's just... Weird,
why put so much effort in shooting a little at an enemy tower? And, then again,
would you go for Agility or Intelligence items for her, thinking of how "awesome"
Gemini and Attract is? Or attack power items maybe? It's not like she'll be doing
OMGPWNAGE damage even if she Do stand still, and certainly not enough against
an enemy hero that knows what he/she is doing, before they can move up and
beat her. Just, look at Garry, he even outrange her, the hell? Why on Earth would
he walk up close enough? Or Sivaz? Why would he run foolishly into her range and
not use a free-shot Hand of Death on her first, making her "move" and get out of
her Lucent Beam? Same with Agnes, a Bleak and both those stand-still skills are
rendered useless. Or the vampire, using the drain, he can stand safely and wait until
she either runs away, weakening her, or he kills her/made her weak enough to kill
her in another way. Abra's throw would be able to get both hits nicely on her, and
his ultimate would get a nice chance. The troll can stand back and use his wards out
of range to pick hero out. Rage gets his wither nicely and can use Necroward to defend
himself form that "überness" damage of hers. If she stands by corpses Ogake gets
a free shot as well. The only two heroes that don't get a easy kill from this is Maw
and Hakkar, oh, of course, there aren't felhounds around her, then Hakkar can get a
neat shot on her. Also, using hsi whip, he can just drag her to himself, out of the beam.
SO, really, an enemy with a brain can easily take hero out if she tries to use her
standing-still combo. Actually, looking at the heroes, she is much more suited to fight
the Elven heroes than the Legion ones... The hell?

As for Gemini Strike, once again, getting a clean shot with it isn't easy, but it isn't
skill that is needed, like with the most skills, it's to be lucky that an enemy is to
stupid to know how to avoid getting struck by it. Killing Pub people isn't the
purpose of her, i hope?

Expert at retreating...? How? She got no spells to escape with, she'll just run,
if you don't get Rocket Boots for her. Once again, Attract isn't the mother goddess
of all spells, you don't take out a hero that hunts her with it, especially if the
enemy realizes that, oh, the spell got a freaking Cooldown still.

About me wanting the old version back, i can tell you you're wrong. Sure, i was
around when the old version of her was here, but i didn't try her out because i
mostly was legion and she disappeared before i got to her. What more, if i was a
person who'd whine over just such a thing i'd be whining over Agnes all days,
since i used to be good with her, but i can see now that she is more balanced
nowdays and got a nice combo/tactic and that she follows a neat theme.

Compare apples to apples? I am! I compare two AoE spells, and anyone could
see that his Cannon is Way more awesome than Gemini Strike, even if it's damage
maybe it's lower, and that is still an normal skill and not an ultimate. The ONLY
effect of Gemini Strike is damage, with a bothersome use-condition. I do compare
an apple with an apple, the difference is that one is rotten in compare with the other >_>

Expert at pursuit? No. She. Isn't. Two of her skills is based on Not Moving, Attract is
good for pursuing, sure, if no enemy unit/hero is just 1 range closer than the target,
but still, that's it, one of her skills is good at pursuing, it doesn't make her a goddess
at it.

Ohh, and, if you had forgotten a thing about Sivaz, which i forgot for a few minutes,
is that he isn't alone, he got his little bodyguard with him. "Excellent!" you might think,
"That is perfect for Gemini Strike!", and, well, hurray for that, except that if he uses Hand
of Death on her and then blinks Cthulu to her new location, he can beat the crap out of
her, since, i repeat, she isn't well suited to build any health/armor/strength.

With this said, No, she isn't a solid concept, the weird you said is the keyword, it's
weird, non-connected and quite frankly a hasty work. I think it's rather you and some
others that Really want to have her back in the game and therefor pushes it so she
wont have to be taken out again, but that is no excuse to make her a fragile-working hero.

What more, something i came up with today, a perfect substitute of Gemini Strike could be
Agnes old ultimate, renamed into something like "Dark Side of Elune", as a sort of
play of on "The dark side of the moon", because, what i've heard, most people liked the
concept of that ultimate and it would suit the pursuing purpose of Tyr.

What more, Dracula, you're still gonna show me how she is to played, no? I look forward
to that demonstration


Also, added in, no hard feelings, i hope? :S
Just saying what i think about the hero and don't want it to turn into a personal conflict >.<